2013 3.pdf Davie Dossier, July 2013 page 1
DAVIE DOSSIER
Issued by
Davie County Historical and Genealogical Society
Mocksville, North Carolina
July 2013, Issue 3
special train edition
Davie Dossier, July 2013 page 2
DAVIE COUNTY HISTORICAL AND GENEALOGICAL SOCIETY
President, Linda Leonard
Vice President, Pat Mason
Secretary, Pat Reilly
Treasurer, Marie Roth
Board of Directors, Claude Horn
Dossier Editor, Marie Roth
Webmaster, Marie Roth
Our Website, www.rootsweb.ancestry.com.com/~ncdavhgs has these features:
All the churches in Davie County
Cemeteries in Davie County with locations
Names on the War Memorial in Mocksville
Index to Bible Family Records at DCPL
Order blanks so you don’t tear up Dossier
History of nine newspapers in Davie County
Meeting Dates and Programs
Guardian Accounts, Davie Co., 1846-1859
Apprentice Bonds, Davie Co., 1829-1959
1974 booklet about old schools in Davie
Branson’s NC Business Directories for Davie Co.
Sources for black family history
Another Website about Davie County genealogy and history:
http://wiki.familysearch.org/en/Davie_County%2C_North_Carolina
Meetings are on the fourth Thursdays at 7 pm at Davie County Library History Room.
PROGRAMS IN 2013:
January 24: Power Point Presentation by Marie Roth “How to Write a History Book”
February 28: Scott Douglas, Historic Interpreter of Fort Dobbs; Power Point presentation
March 28: Charles Crenshaw, History of Davie County
April 25: US Census, examples and guidelines for using
May 4: Daniel Boone Festival on the Square in Mocksville
June 27: Larry Campbell, Using Ancestry.Com
August 3: Yadkin Valley Historical Association annual workshop in Statesville
September 26: Linda Sechrist, Colonial Dames
October 24: Rose Ann Wade, Preserving History in Videos and Writing
November 21: Cemetery Laws
Future National Genealogical Conferences:
August 21-24, 2013, Federation of Genealogical Societies at Fort Wayne IN
Description at www.fgs.org/cpage.php?pt=43
Future State Genealogical Conferences:
November 9, 2013, NCGS Annual Workshop, McKimmon Center, Raleigh, Craig R. Scott, speaker
Description at www.ncgenealogy.org
If you would like to receive your Dossier as a PDF attachment in an E-mail instead of a paper
copy, please send an E-mail message to the editor at hildegarde39@yahoo.com . Please state “E-
mail my Dossier instead of mailing a paper copy” and include your E-mail address. This saves
money, time, postage, effort, and paper.
More info:
In the April 2013, a poem, the “Census Taker” was printed; author unknown.
A little more research has found the author, Darlene Caryl-Stevens.
IN MEMORY: One of our Life Members, Mrs. Helen Crenshaw, 97, died 27 June 2013.
Davie Dossier, July 2013 page 3
Davie County History Books that Describe Trains
From History of Davie County, pages 333-334: “Davie County citizens interested in progress wanted a
railroad. Between 1869 and 1899 the county voted five times to authorize the county commissioners to subscribe
stock in amounts varying from $35,000 to $100,000 to railroad companies in order to get a road built in the
county. Finally in April, 1891, a contract was signed, and the county invested $40,000 in the North Carolina
Midland Railroad Company. The contract specified that the road was to be completed and to have trains in
operation by November 15, 1891.
“The town of Mocksville supported the County Commissioners in their efforts to get the railroad. In
March, 1879, the Board of Commissioners for the town promised right-of-way on the town-owned property and
pledge their effort to help the railroad secure right-o-way from private citizens. The Town Commissioners
specified that the railroad run “to a point as near the Court House as may be practicable.” On May 31, 1880, 85
of the 90 registered voters of Mocksville voted 83 to 2 to subscribe $5,000 stock in the proposed railroad.
“The road was built on time. The first train came from Winston-Salem to Mocksville on November 1,
1891. The railroad stopped at Mocksville, and a turntable near the present [1969] Mocksville Feed Mill was
pushed by hand to turn the engine around. The train was pulled to Mocksville and pushed to Winston-Salem. A
mixed train carrying both passengers and freight, it arrived in Mocksville about 8:00 p.m., spend the night, and
left for Winston-Salem at 7:00 a.m next morning.
“For many years the trains were a great attraction to everyone, and the depot was a busy place. In
December, 1896, a town ordinance was passed to prevent the crowds from getting too close to the train, and in
November , 1897, “a special Policeman [was appointed] to attend the Depot every night to assist the regular
policeman in keeping order.”
“The railroad became part of the Southern Railway System in 1894. In 1899 the road was completed to
Mooresville.”
“The railroad became Davie County’s link with the outside world. For almost fifty years passenger and
freight trains made regularly scheduled stoops at Advance, Bixby, Cornatzer, Mocksville, and Cooleemee
Junction carrying commerce and people to and from Davie County.
“Railroad mail service was discontinued in July, 1967, and scheduled passenger service, on January 31,
1968. [In 1969] Four freight trains pass through the county daily and make scheduled stops in Mocksville. Two
passenger trains make flag stops.”
Images of America Mocksville, page 38, has photos of the old depot in Mocksville in place, and one
photo of it being moved. Page 40 is a photo of a truck unloading furniture from a freight car. Page 104 has a
picture of the Advance depot.
Images of America Davie County, pages 20 and 21 have four pictures of Mocksville’s depot. Page 56
has a photo of the Cooleemee Junction depot. “The railroad depot stood along the main track of the Winston-to-
Charlotte line that later became part of the Southern Railroad. With early roads little more than rutted dirt wagon
trails, a modern cotton mill could not bring in materials or ship out finished cloth without trains. A spur line that
ran parallel to the river connected the junction to the mill. When needed, locomotives pulled cars, including large
coal shipments.”
Davie County Heritage, paragraphs 175-180 describe trains in Davie. Paragraph 1049 mentions that
Charles Joseph Taylor was the depot agent in Advance.
Growing Up in Davie County, pages 82-86, gives an account of William Jamie Moore’s first train ride to
Winston-Salem. This would have been about 1913. “It was a nice bright day when my father, Paul [his brother],
Mr. Young and I climbed the three iron steps of the train. I can still remember the look of the sunshine and
shadows on the train steps as we climbed aboard and I knew we were going at last. We walked through the car
door into a long room with red plush seats arranged in two rows separated by a center aisle. We paid no attention
to the cinders that had collected on the open window but sat down to wait.” “By now, we were passing, at high
speed, open fields rimmed by trees in the distance. The few trees near the tracks moved in one direction while
those in the distance whirled by in the opposite direction.” He also ate his first hot dog ever while they were in
Winston.
Davie Dossier, July 2013 page 4
Cooleemee, the life and Times of a Mill Town, page 162: “Cooleemee’s principal link to the outside
world was through the depot at Cooleemee Junction. A massive train trestle spanned the South Yadkin River near
the depot, linking Davie and Rowan County. Twice daily, trains traveling the railroad’s Winston-to-Charlotte line
stopped there to drop off freight, mail and people.” “When cotton was purchased from Georgia and South
Carolina, or when finished cloth needed shipping to markets across the nation, the two-mile railroad spur line
linked the mill and village with Cooleemee Junction. “People, as well as the lighter cargo dropped off at the
Junction, made their way to the village by a wide variety of means: Horse-drawn wagon, steamboat, railroad
trolley-car pumped by hand, or if you chose, one could simply walk the two miles to Cooleemee.”
Page 167 describes the excursion train from Mooresville to the Junction and then to Cooleemee in June of
1903. Everyone went all-out to present their new town in the best light. Passengers were met at the boat landing
by a band playing ‘There’ll Be A Hot Time in the Old Town Tonight.’ “ “After the greetings, ice cream was
served and the day’s activities began. The whole group was taken downtown to the Square for a shopping trip.
The men received haircuts, shampoos and a shave. Everyone picked up a bathing suit at Ledford’s store, then
proceeded to the Bullhole to bathe in the river. Later in the day, a banquet and picnic were held on the roller mill
lawn.” There were activities in the evening and then the Mooresville visitors rode the train back home.
History of Davie County Schools, page 126: “Mary Eliza Hudson (1875-1934) was a well-known teacher
at the primary school. She also taught at Bixby, Olive Branch, Troutman, and Advance according t o old picture
post cards sent by her to family members. These are in the collection of her great nephew, Larry Cope. She
traveled from her school to her home in Cooleemee by train. One postcard to her sister Maude Hudson and
postmarked in Advance says “Be sure to meet me to-morrow evening for I'm sure coming rain or shine.” She
would exit the train at the Junction, northwest of Cooleemee. In that era, the trains came through 4 times a day.
(information and photo from Larry and Pat Cope)
Davie County in World War One, page 336: “The Red Cross sure did treat us nice. They met the train at
every town and gave us coffee and cake, ice cream, cigarettes, lemonade. Then told us goodbye.” Page 347: “Six
Davie county boys left Saturday morning on the 5 o'clock train for Camp Jackson.” The train was the main means
of transportation. The word “entrain” was created to describe the recruit’s departure. On page 272, there is a
photograph of Manuel Smith at 16 years of age, standing at the Advance depot on his way to Winston-Salem to
work at R.J. Reynolds for 10 years before he joined the Army in World War One.
Davie County Veterans’ Memorial, soldiers departed for training camps and returned home on the train
for quick visits before going overseas. They also transferred to other military bases on the train. Fatalities were
returned for burial in Davie County soon after death or 4 or 5 years later from overseas using rail service.
For an online NC railroad map see http://dc.lib.unc.edu/cdm/ref/collection/ncmaps/id/506
Why did you go to Iowa, Tommy?
In my own family history of researching my great grandfather,
Thomas “Tommy” Jasper Richardson, I could not find him on the 1870
census. I had typed specific information into Ancestry.Com. So I removed
the location information and searched for him in the US. Low and behold,
here he was in Iowa with his married brother, sister-in-law, and toddler
nephew on a farm in Jackson, Poweshiek Co., Iowa. I discovered this poster
online which probably enticed them to leave the poor conditions after the
Civil War. The railroad owned the land and needed people to live on it and
create business for them. However, Tommy was back in Davie County in
March of 1872. He bought land one day and got married the next day. His
brother’s family returned also.
DAVIE MEMORIES In an interview about my WWI book, I was talking
to a woman who lives in Bixby. She told me that as a young person, she and
her siblings would catch the train and ride to Mocksville to go to the movie.
Davie Dossier, July 2013 page 5
TRAIN
-Edith Shutt Zimmerman
According to my grandfather J.E.B. Shutt`s Family Bible (also Advance Histo rian Mrs. Minnie Talbert
Bryson notes same date) the first train entered Davie County, NC in the Shady Grove township (now Advance)
over the trestle crossing the Yadkin River at Idols Dam (Forsyth County) on May 8, 1891. Midland Railroad
(now Southern Railway) had four passenger trains which ran daily: Northbound at 8:00 AM and 2:00 PM and
Southbound at 10:00 AM and 4:00 PM. In addition, freight trains usually came twice daily: Northbound in the
morning and Southbound in the evening. Passenger trains were discontinued in the 1940`s. Currently, freight
trains run twice daily, from Winston Salem to points south.
On May 18, 1891, Col. A.B. Andrews, President of Midland R.R. Co. division of the Southern Railroad
System wrote to the Board:
“ I desire to notify you officially, that the North Carolina Midland Railroad completed its road and had
cars running across the Yadkin River into Davie County and a regular freight and passenger service established on
this road on May 8, 1891, and I respectfully request that you have this fact entered upon your records and do
whatever else may be necessary to show that we have completed that portion of the contract made with your city
in regard to building the North Carolina Midland Railroad”. (Board of Commissioners, Town of Winston: 1870-
1879, pg. 14-16 Forsyth County Historical Association)
When I was employed at P.H. Hanes Knitting Company in Winston Salem (in the 1930`s) I rode the train
home for the weekends. It was always a thrill to see the big ‘iron horse’ approa ching with the black smoke
billowing from its smokestack. Many people used to catch the 8:00 AM train into Winston Salem, work all day in
one of the various factories, and come home on the 4:00 PM train.
Mr. Clyde Barber was a Brakeman on the caboose. (The train went into Barber Junction at this time.)
The railroad was very near our house on Cornatzer when my children were growing up. Mr. Barber learned all
the children along the route and would toss out covered hard candy to them. When our girls hear d the train
whistle on the approaching train, they would run to the railroad tracks, waving, wait for Mr. Barber, and catch
candy. During the summer Mr. Barber gave watermelon feasts for the children at the home of his friend, Willie
Chaplin, on Cornatzer Road. He gave Christmas parties for the children, along with small gifts, at the old Shady
Grove School.
ADVANCE DEPOT
-Edith Shutt Zimmerman
The depot was a thriving business in the late 1800-early 1900s. This photo belonged to the late Laura
Shutt. The depot was a social gathering place for the Advance residents on Sunday afternoons. It was also the
hub for merchants. Products were loaded from wagons, livestock was shipped in and out from the depot corral,
coal was sold from the coal bin near the side track from freight cars, and whiskey came in from the 9 distilleries in
the area. A tall wooden water tank stood near the railroad track to refill water as needed for the train boiler.
During the early 1900s four major train depots were located in Davie County, NC on the North Carolina
Midland Branch of the Southern Railroad which ran between Winston and Mooresville ---Advance, Cornatzer,
Mocksville, and Cooleemee.
The first depot agent at Advance was Gus Allison from 1891-1905, then he transferred to Mocksville, NC
to be that station’s depot agent. Alex Kimbrough became the ticket agent and telegraph operator at the Advance
depot from 1905 for several years until Gus Allison returned to work a second term. Jack Felker followed Allison
as depot agent, then Eddie Morrison who was known for his telegraphing skills. Frank P. Kerner took the agent
position after Morrison. The last two agents were Sarah Haire and Mary Lethia Vogler before the Southern
Railroad closed the Advance depot, and it was torn down in 1953. All the agents lived locally. The Gus Allison
house still stands; it was bought by a family who refurbished it and live in it. How well I remember visiting little
girl playmates in the lower part of Advance and going to the depot to see and h ear the click, click of the telegraph
taking and sending messages. If we had out-of-town visitors coming in by train they were always met with great
enthusiasm.
A long unloading ramp facing the R.R. ran along the side of the depot. It was used for produc ts being
shipped in.
I remember Mr. Jim Barnhardt of the Fork Church community who bought wild horses from the West,
had them shipped to the Advance depot where they were put in a corral until men on horseback could be rounded
up to drive the herd of horses through Advance to Fork Church where Mr. Barnhardt would “break” them and sell
Davie Dossier, July 2013 page 6
them. As a child living on the old Fulton Road (now Highway 801 South) the horses would be driven by our
house. This was always very exciting with everyone in the community coming out to see the horses driven down
the dusty road.
Another story I remember was the whiskey shipments. Before probation, whiskey manufacturers took
barrels to the depot for shipment all over the state. By morning, one barrel was usually mysteriousl y empty. It is
said the town drinkers would crawl under the depot with an auger and bore through the floor draining the whiskey
into buckets. Everyone knew where the hole was; no one ever plugged it!
It was such a thrill to be at the depot when an approaching passenger train came in at a slowed speed.
The lowered flag pole on the depot roof was holding raised bags of out -going or receiving mail. The mail would
instantly be grabbed from the pole while the train moved on ---- that is IF there were no passengers arriving or
departing. Otherwise the train would stop and drop the mail being brought in. One old fellow in the community
was assigned this job of retrieving the mail bags. (Note flag pole on the picture.) The mail was delivered over the
community by horse and buggy.
Later ‘old’ Uncle Bryant Jarvis took his wheelbarrow to meet the train, picked up the mail in the
wheelbarrow and took it to the newly established Post Office located in lower Advance at the Tom Mock General
store.
TRAIN HOBOS
-Edith Shutt Zimmerman
Hobos would hitch a ride on the train into
Advance. They would go to Uncle Ance
Cornatzer’s boarding house which was located 4
or 5 houses north going into Advance. It was a
big two-story house of 10-12 rooms which served
meals prepared daily by Uncle Ance’s wife, Aunt
Emma. She often remarked she never knew who
she was feeding from day to day or how many
would be putting their feet under her table.
There was also a livery stable in their
back yard barn. Often people would rent a horse
and buggy for traveling farther into the area.
Uncle Ance would put the Hobos to work at the
barn until the next available train came. He
would say, “Boys, while you rest, feed the horses
and clean the stables”!!. If no beds were available
in the boarding house, the Hobos would sleep in
the barn on clean hay.
Uncle Ance`s wife Emma acquired a
medical knowledge from her late husband, Dr.
George Lippard, and did a non-urgent practice.
She also extracted teeth. Story is told that Uncle
Ance would sit on his front porch watching the
horse and buggy traffic, as well as walkers, and
would call out “Hey Bub, come on in for dinner.”
The beautiful Cornatzer house still stands,
refurbished and lived in. My grandparents, John
and Maud Sheek, lived next door to the
Cornatzers, thus the information I have comes
straight. John was the miller at the Bailey Roller
Flour Mill across the road from the depot.
Photo Photographs:
Top right of the Lippard-Cornatzer House mentioned above. Image shared by Brenda Zimmerman.
Lower: Ance Cornatzer’s Livery Stable, about 1918, shared by Edith Shutt Zimmerman
Davie Dossier, July 2013 page 7
Steam train that came through Advance in 1891. Images shared by Edith Shutt Zimmerman
Davie Dossier, July 2013 page 8
Ratledge Reunion announcement from Hayes Ratledge:
We are having a Ratledge Reunion for all Ratledge descendants everywhere. The meeting will be
Saturday, July 27, 10:30 am -2:30 pm, at the Cornerstone Christian Church, 1585 Hwy 801 N. Mocksville. For
those needing or wanting lodging, a block of rooms is reserved at the Hampton Inn Bermuda Run/Advance.
I have been in contact Ratledges all over the country – all have their roots back to Davie County.
Our Ratledge Reunion is free to all Ratledge descendants. It begins at 10:30 am with a casual genealogy
sharing session, a potluck luncheon at noon, with the business session ending at 2:30 pm. Each family in
attendance will receive a complete (free) Ratledge genealogy report of thousands of Ratledges (including what is
shared at the reunion) back to Edward Ratledge, who was born about 1670 in Kent, Delaware.
My father, John Fred Ratledge, was born in Davie County and my 3rd Great Grandfather, Daniel James
Ratledge, was the 1st Ratledge to come to Rowan/Davie County in the late 1700’s. According to my records,
Thomas Ratledge, Daniel James Ratledge’s son, was a surveyor who laid out the town of Mocksville as the 1st
county seat of Davie County.
Dad’s siblings were: Ralph, Grady, Lela, Fushia, Charlie, Duke, Dewey and Otis, all born in the
Mocksville area.
For further information and/or to let us know if you plan to attend, my contact information is: Hayes
Ratledge, 608 Stage Coach Ct, Greensboro, NC 27409. Phone 336.299.3976. Email: hayes@hayesratledge.com.
We would also love to have anyone join our group on Facebook: Ratledges of Davie County.
Heritage Books for Davie County
Since 1997, fourteen hundred copies of the locally-produced book, Davie County Heritage, have
been published. Around 80 of these remain unsold and are available for purchase at Davie County Public Library
for $40 each. The original cost was $50.
These books are comprised of family history information submitted by people who had Davie County
ancestors. There is also information about churches, schools, businesses, military, organizations, fire
departments, and doctors. Even though it was published 16 years ago, the data is still very important to historians
and genealogists.
A committee of hard workers assembled this
book, and many researchers have appreciated the
volume. Each of the schools in Davie County was
given a copy of this book a few years ago.
Funds generated by the books bought a 46
inch monitor, attached computer, and keyboard
which is mounted on a large rolling base. It will be
used at Davie County Public Library for computer-
generated programs, DVDs, training sessions, or
welcoming messages to the library.
If you would like to order a copy of this book
which will benefit you in your research and also
benefit the funds for such equipment, see page 9.
Equipment for library use bought by proceeds from sale of Davie County Heritage Book.
Davie Dossier, July 2013 page 9
ORDERING ITEMS AND/OR PAYING DUES. (Out of state residents don’t pay state tax when ordering.)
Title Author Non-
NC
NC No. Cost
BOOKS:
Davie County.A Brief History,
paperback
James W. Wall, 128 pages $9.00 $9.39
The Boone Families in Davie County Wall, Howell Boone, Flossie Martin $8.00 $8.31
Davie County Marriages 1836-1900 Nancy K. Murphy $25.00 $26.55
Davie County Marriages 1901-1959 Nancy K. Murphy $25.00 $26.55
Davie County Cemeteries, a 2-volume
set
D.C. Historical/Gen. Soc. $55.00 $58.88
1850 Federal Census-Davie County Forsyth Genealogical Society $15.00 $15.68
1860 Federal Census-Davie County Nancy K. Murphy and Everette Sain $20.00 $21.16
1870 Federal Census-Davie County Nancy K. Murphy and Everette Sain $20.00 $21.16
MAPS:
Lagle Land Grant $8.00 $8.31
Hughes Historical, 1700's, drawn in 1977 $8.00 $8.31
J.T. Alderman, 1887 $6.00 $6.47
Wilson F. Merrell, 1928 $6.00 $6.47
POSTCARDS OF DAVIE CO. SCENES, (set of 8) $2.50 $2.50 $2.50
CD of all issues Davie Dossier since 1987 $7.00 $7.39
TOTAL NUMBER AND COST
Davie County Heritage Book, non-NC resident cost is $45; NC resident cost is $48.10.
Make check to Davie County Heritage Book. Use DCHGS address below.
The Historic Architecture of Davie Co., non-NC resident cost is $30; NC resident cost is $31.94.
History of Davie County, hardback, by James W. Wall, 449 pages; non-NC resident cost is $30; NC resident cost is
$31.94. Make check to Davie County Public Library. Use DCHGS address below.
The Civil War Roster of Davie County by Mary Alice Miller Hasty and Hazel Miller Winfree incorporates biographical
and military service sketches of 1,147 Davie County Civil War veterans. Non -NC resident cost is $60. NC resident cost is
$64.26. Checks should be made out to M & M Books and sent to Mary Alice Hasty, 105 East Brick Walk Court,
Mocksville NC 27028.
Images of America, Davie County by Debra Dotson and Jane McAllister. 128 page book of old photos and descriptions.
Order from Jane McAllister, DCPL, 371 N. Main St., Mocksville NC 27028. Make check to Jane McAllister. Non -NC
resident cost is $26.99. NC resident cost is $28.69.
History of Davie County Schools, 318 pages, by Marie Benge Craig Roth has photos, locations, longitude/latitude, names
of students, and teachers. There is an 18 page index of 3,222 names. A chronology describes the evolution of the school
system in Davie. Make check to Marie Roth for $40.26 for non-residents and $43 for NC resident. Order: 276 Park Ave.,
Mocksville NC
Davie County in World War One by Marie Benge Craig Roth has 670 biographies of Davie men and women who served,
photographs, old letters, description of military bases, and extensive index. 400 pages. Make check to Marie Roth for
$42.47 for non-residents and $45 for NC resident. Order: 276 Park Ave., Mocksville NC 27028 .
Davie County Veterans’ Memorial, by Marie Benge Craig Roth has lists of all war deaths and biographies and photos of
WW2, Korean, Vietnam, and Beirut Bombing deaths. Tom Ferebee’s 32 minute talk at the dedication in 1987 is
included. $31.23 for non-resident and $33 for NC resident. Order: 276 Park Ave., Mocksville NC 27028.
Cana Connections, 201 pages, by Betty Etchison West; Life in Cana in the Thirties and Forties and Special People with
Cana Connections. There are many biographies and photos of people and buildings. Order from Betty West, 3532 NC
Hwy. 801 North, Mocksville NC 27028. Make check to Betty West for $35, which includes tax and shipping.
Looking Back at Davie County II by Charles Crenshaw and Ron Smith. $45. Mail orders to Charles Crenshaw, 421
Park Avenue, Mocksville NC 27028
DCHGS, 371 North Main Street, Mocksville NC 27028
Davie Dossier, July 2013 page 10
371 North Main Street
Mocksville NC 27028
The number beside your name, above, shows the year for which you last paid $5 dues. Example: if you have an
11 by your name, you have paid dues through 2011 and owe us for 2012 and 2013, or $10.
MEMBERSHIP for a calendar year is still just $5.00/year. Life Membership is $100 per person.
We are 501(c)(3) and dues are tax deductible.
Below is a registration form for your use; checks, payable to the Society.
DAVIE COUNTY HISTORICAL AND GENEALOGICAL SOCIETY (DCHGS)
Davie County Public Library, 371 Main Street
Mocksville, North Carolina 27028
NAME ________________________________________________________________________
ADDRESS _____________________________________________________________________
E-MAIL ADDRESS ______________________________________________________________
Send my copy by E-mail instead of paper; yes, no